An interview with Programme Development Manager, Anthony Evans @ Epic Arts

Anthony Evans. Programme Manager @ Epic Arts

Interview Thoughts and Comments

How would you describe inclusive arts?

Inclusive Arts is just arts; its arts that involves all people and doesn't discriminate against someone because of what they can or cannot do. It's the way arts should be; a space for creativity for anyone regardless of ability, gender, race, religion, sexuality etc. An inclusive arts organisation is the same as any other arts organisation, it's just that it focuses on being adaptable to those people who work within it or who interact with it, to enable the creativity of everyone to be explored. The results from inclusive arts practice are unique as you have different people coming together and their differences, whether that is physically, mentally or culturally, combine to make something new.

"Inclusive Arts is just arts; its arts that involves all people and doesn't discriminate against someone because of what they can or cannot do. It's the way arts should be; a space for creativity for anyone regardless of ability, gender, race, religion, sexuality etc."

Inclusive arts is sometimes seen as art therapy and people in Cambodia often see that the idea of using arts with people with disability can only be arts therapy. I think arts therapy is the idea of treating someone or making someone better with arts. It is treating something that is ‘wrong’ with them and not about the arts that they can create; it is about rehabilitating, not about creating. 

"Inclusive Arts is not a ‘treatment’ or ‘rehabilitation’ of someone, but it is about creative individuals making work, sharing an experience, teaching others and communicating a message."

Arts therapy is a very effective tool at providing emotional and physical healing and is valid within society, but it is different to inclusive arts. Inclusive Arts is not a ‘treatment’ or ‘rehabilitation’ of someone, but it is about creative individuals making work, sharing an experience, teaching others and communicating a message. I often find myself explaining to people in Cambodia, that the people we work with do not need ‘fixing’, we are not doing this work to ‘make people better’, they are artists and they are being creative and they can have a voice,they can educate others and communicate with others through the arts.

As the Programme Development Manager at Epic Arts, what are you trying to achieve and develop overall with the programmes?

There are two things we are trying to achieved with our work, one is to explore inclusivity and encouraging inclusion, in someway I would say that within this is disability awareness too, as Cambodia is far behind Western culture in the overall awareness of people with disabilities. Before we can discuss and promote inclusion, there needs to be awareness raised about people with disabilities and their ability and role within society. Cambodia is only just starting to create services for people with disabilities and so to then talk about a place where everyone works equally together, it's a very new, forward thinking concept here.

In Cambodia, we are often seen as a disability organisation, which we try to dispel, but this is the level of understanding that the country has; people int he country with disabilities often work separately from those without, or are helped by those without disabilities. On an international scale we are very much pushing the idea of inclusive arts and we can say that, yes, we do work with people with disabilities, but that they are artists in their own right, they are educators in their own right and they are professionals as much as the non-disabled people we work with are. We celebrate the creative work and connections that come from the combination of different people and we want to promote the attitude of equality and acceptance through this work.

"On an international scale we are very much pushing the idea of inclusive arts and we can say that, yes, we do work with people with disabilities, but that they are artists in their own right, they are educators in their own right and they are professionals as much as the non-disabled people we work with are."

The second thing we are trying to achieve is encouraging the development of the arts in Cambodia, which was severely affected by the Khmer Rouge. Because of the regime, arts in the country is at a much lower stage of development that in other cultures and Epic as an arts organisation aims to contribute to this development in the country. I think a few years ago, people saw Epic Arts as a disability organisation or maybe a disability arts organisation, but I feel now its being recognised as a high quality arts organisation that works with a range of people. This is promoting the arts in Cambodia and also raises the profile of people with disabilities as successful members of society. The combination of disabled and non-disabled people working on an equal level, creating arts and saying something about their country is a powerful tool for change.

What do you think are the things that you do or think that make successful inclusive arts happen at Epic Arts?.... Can you give me an example?

I think in someway, the way I am could be seen as being un-inclusive in the Western world as on the whole I forget that people even have a disability at Epic. I am so used to seeing people, particularly the performers being so strong and at the top of their game that I forget about their disability and don't jump to open a door for them or wheel them up a ramp. This might seem as being unhelpful and un-inclusive to the outside eye, but I know they are very independent and very capable of doing it themselves. I am worried that if I were to do that back in the UK, I would be seen as been disrespectful for not helping and assisting someone with a disability.

I view all the work that I do at Epic Arts as inclusive, whether this is on the arts side of things or in the business or community work I do, as having the same understanding of inclusivity. The elements of Epic Arts such as administration, finance etc. are the same as in all large organisations, its just that here we may need to adapt the systems that are used in these areas to enable inclusive working on all levels. We are an inclusive arts organisation and have inclusive workshops and inclusive teachers and inclusive performances and inclusive education, but we also need to be inclusive in the administration and organisation of Epic Arts. This can come in the form of timetables, annual leave forms etc which have to be created with images as well as words. We use sign and language translators in the office as well as on the ground in the workshops and we need to be generally aware in the whole organisation of adapting methods for all the people we work with, whether this is in a creativity capacity or in a more ‘formal’ capacity such as in the office.

"We are an inclusive arts organisation and have inclusive workshops and inclusive teachers and inclusive performances and inclusive education, but we also need to be inclusive in the administration and organisation of Epic Arts."

On a personal level I forget about peoples disabilities all the time, as I am always focused on peoples abilities, I don't think you can say ‘see ability, not disability’ and then in seeing ability all the time, not make a mistake sometimes when you forget about something that may be an obstacle for a person with a disability, but we are human and that's just what happens sometimes when you are working with so many different people - we can all make mistakes while we are trying to do the right thing.

What do you think other people need to do or think to make successful inclusive arts happen?

We often say that people have ‘Epic DNA’ when we find the person that has the right attitude to work at Epic. This is often difficult to describe, but I think that people who are successful at working at Epic Arts are adaptable and understanding that things are changeable and organic. This is a ‘creative persons’ concept and mind set, that things are moveable and in constant change, that things and people need to flexible to solve creative problems and that there shouldn't be a fear of things not working and having to be changed, but this way of thinking very much applies to being inclusive overall. The other attitudes I see as part of the ‘Epic DNA’ are kindness and also within that kindness a strength and courage to push for better and to be honest with people or themselves when they can improve.

"We often say that people have ‘Epic DNA’ when we find the person that has the right attitude to work at Epic…..I see as part of the ‘Epic DNA’ are kindness and also within that kindness a strength and courage to push for better and to be honest with people or themselves when they can improve."

There also needs to be an acceptance of people and humanity. People are people and people with a disability of any kind are people, they may just approach life in a different way to someone without that disability. When seeing all people as people, its important to see that everyone has ability and can achieve but also that everyone has the potential to make mistakes and do things wrong and we should treat each other fairly and in the same way whatever the circumstances. We often experience people visiting Epic Arts and in a way ‘feeling sorry’ for the people with disabilities at the organisation, they pity them and say they are doing wonderful things all the time, they do not tell them when they are doing something wrong, or where they can make improvements as I think they feel bad about being negative towards people with disabilities. But this might be a different way in which someone would treat a non-disabled person and therefore not inclusive.

"Its important to see that everyone has ability and can achieve but also that everyone has the potential to make mistakes and do things wrong and we should treat each other fairly and in the same way whatever the circumstances."

I have been very interested in the recent Oscar Pistorias case and how his disability has been used as an excuse or part of the defence, yet when he was an Olympic star he was strong and ‘inspiring’ and could do no wrong, he was not weak and pitied and yet as I have seen the case unfold, I have seen his disability become a excuse, a source of pity or a perceived weakness and I wonder if people are fearful of saying he is wrong because of his disability. At the end of the day he is a person and capable of right and wrong and we should not let someone’s physicality affect the way we treat him or her regardless of the situation.

Oscar Pistorias

You say people need to be accepting and adaptable. Have you ever seen that happening at Epic Arts or outside of Epic Arts?..... Can you give me an example?

I have seen the affects of an accepting and adaptable attitude on the staff and students of Epic when they are not at work and are socialising with their friends or families. The idea of being adaptable and inclusive of everyone at Epic Arts, filters out in to their everyday lives. When I leave work I see students in wheelchairs, holding on to the back of a bicycles being pulled along and then I realise that the person on the bicycle is deaf or can not see well, but they are working as a team and I just see two friends trying to get from one place to another as fast as they can and adapting to make this happen. Many people on the way home stare at them and I feel this make such a positive statement to the local community as they see these people adapting and working together to achieve something.

I get to play football with the staff and students at Epic Arts a few times a week and this is a place where I see the attitudes and values of Epic being played out for all to see. The team play at a local football pitch and many people from the community come to watch. The team consists of wheelchair users, people who are deaf or have a visual impairment and non-disabled people and they all play on the same team. 

The football pitch in Kampot that Epic Arts Staff and students play

The people at the side of the pitch often stare when we all turn up and I can see them thinking ‘How on earth are these guys going to do this.’ Then everyone makes their way to the pitch and plays a game and the people watch. Everyone on the team is aware of what people may need, for example, Sothon who has a visual impairment needs everyone to shout him directions to find the ball and those who are deaf use sign language across the pitch to communicate tactics. Everyone is responsible for themselves and works out a way to adapt to play the game and the rest of the team then support this. It’s such an effective way of sharing the message of ‘every person counts’ to the community of Kampot and its great fun too.

What do you think people do or think that can stop successful inclusive arts from happening?

Overall I think that if you do not accept that ‘different’ is ok then there is a big problem, if you can not accept that different is ok or can be more that ok, that different can be amazing and better than the original or the ‘norm’, that different can be game changing, or different can be tomorrows next big thing. If you cannot accept any of this, then you cannot accept a range of different people, you cannot adapt to their needs and therefore you cannot include. I think that also telling people what they can and cannot do, in terms of their ability, stops inclusive arts practise from being successful, as those people are not being given creative freedom, they are already being told what their limitations are. People need to see what people can do, not predict what they can’t do and be prepared to explore all possibilities, not just decide something is not possible,

"If you do not accept that ‘different’ is ok then there is a big problem, if you can not accept that different is ok or can be more that ok, that different can be amazing and better than the original or the ‘norm’, that different can be game changing, or different can be tomorrows next big thing. If you cannot accept any of this, then you cannot accept a range of different people, you cannot adapt to their needs and therefore you cannot include."

It’s hard in the work we do to ‘measure’ people in terms of evaluating progress, particularly on our Inclusive Arts Course. The students are studying arts and we have a curriculum and assessment and evaluation tasks, but these are very flexible as we can not set a ridged standard to which a performer or artist has to reach in order to pass, as this may not be achievable in the same way for all. I think that setting boundaries of how people can ‘achieve’ limits the success of inclusive arts. There needs to be high quality standards, but exactly what these are needs to be flexible. If a dancer does not have the use of their legs an is a wheelchair user, they would fail if we wanted them achieve a perfect high leg kick to pass the course, so we have to re-think what the assessment criteria to prevent there being ‘boxes’ that people need to fit in to to succeed.

"There also needs to be an understanding that creating inclusive arts work is a shared experience within a ‘community’ of artists. It is not about a single persons agenda or mission, or solely about what they can get from it, but about a shared purpose."

Another element that I think really affects the successfulness of inclusive arts practise is being a ‘lone wolf’, not wanting to share ideas and experiences, not allowing for others to learn and develop and not being an active part of a team. Also its important to allow time for development of ideas and learning, there needs to be time for things to be adapted and this may take longer in an inclusive arts setting, but in the end it means everyone is included in the process.

There also needs to be an understanding that creating inclusive arts work is a shared experience within a ‘community’ of artists. It is not about a single persons agenda or mission, or solely about what they can get from it, but about a shared purpose. People need to be open and understanding of other peoples experiences of a situation and not be focused only on an individual achievement, which can isolate others. Inclusive arts is about celebrating creativity and diversity and you cannot really celebrate on your own, there has to be a focus on shared experience and unity, not just personal gain.

What has this told me about the inclusive arts practice within this activity at Epic Arts? What are the key themes?

Disability Arts Vs. Inclusive Arts

Anthony touches on the concept of arts therapy and makes clear the differences between that and disability or inclusive arts. He says art therapy is focused on helping and healing, where as the work that Epic Arts does is focus on the individual as an artist. Inclusive Arts is not about ‘fixing’ or ‘healing’ people. Anthony also explains that part of Epic Arts work in Cambodia is to raise general awareness of disability in the country, but that this is not its sole purpose, it is also to raise awareness and teach about inclusion through the arts and explore arts practice in the country.

Creative Interaction Cycle

Anthony explains that the results of inclusive arts are unique as they are a combination of culture, physicality, understanding and many other elements. There is a creative interaction between the people involved that combines to makes something new.

Disability in Cambodia

In Cambodia, Epic Arts is often seen as a disability organisation and Anthony says the organisation is trying to explain that Epic works with people, who are disabled, but this is not ‘caring’ for them or ‘treating’ them and they are working on an equal level with non-disabled people. He says that in Cambodia, people view those with disabilities as people to be treated, fixed or made better, not people who have a mind of their own or their own creative expression.

High Quality

Anthony says that he wishes for Epic Arts to be seen as a high quality arts organisation in Cambodia, not a disability organisation. After the destruction of the arts in the country, he feels it’s important to work alongside other arts organisations to encourage the development of the arts and also the development of inclusive arts as a professional and powerful entity. Anthony says that within all the work that happens, there needs to be kindness, but along with this a strength to be able to move forward and develop. He mean not being kind in a patronizing way or with the attitude that something is ‘good enough’ because it is inclusive, but being strong and honest to strive to be the best we can be.

See Ability

Anthony strives to see ability in the people at Epic Arts regardless of who they are and finds that often he does not rush to help people with disabilities as he sees them as capable people. He worries that this may be seen as being ‘un-inclusive’ in the West. In seeing ability in people, he often even forgets about the restrictions that may be there for a person with a disability. He also talks about not limiting what people can do by telling them that they cannot do it and not allowing them to first try it. He warns against not ‘predicting’ what people are able or not able to do.

We Are Human

Anthony says that we are all human and can make mistakes in inclusion; it’s easy to forget what someone might need or what they may find difficult. Anthony explains that mistakes can happen when trying to plan programmes and activities, but everyone is human and everyone at Epic is striving to be inclusive. Anthony also shares that we must see people as people, humans as humans regardless of their situation or status

Adaptability

Anthony explains that one of the main attitudes someone needs to be inclusive is being able to change be flexible. 
He calls this a key part of ‘Epic DNA’

Equality

Anthony recognizes the importance of the acceptance of people and of seeing everyone’s ability. Within this he says we must accept that all people are capable of good and bad regardless of their status or situation and we must be honest and equal in the way we treat people and not have different standards of behavior for people with and with-out disabilities.

Acceptance

Anthony speaks passionately about accepting difference and different people and that we should try and see diversity as better than the ‘norm’ and that without the ability accept, inclusion becomes impossible.

Care

Anthony talks about the need for kindness and a caring attitude toward all people within inclusive arts

  

Teamwork

Anthony gives an example of the students leaving the center at the end of the day and working as a team, using their individual strengths, to achieve a common goal. Anthony also says that people who are not team players, someone who is a ‘lone wolf’, can restrict learning, as they are not willing to share knowledge and experience with the team.

 

Inclusive Ambassadors

Anthony explains that when they students and staff are outside of Epic Arts, they continue to be inclusive and other people see this. He gives the example of the football games that the staff and student play after work and how many people come and watch them and see the staff and students being inclusive of all people in the game

A ‘Can Do’ Attitude

When Anthony is talking about the football games he plays with Epic Arts staff and students, he explains that all the players take responsibility for their own involvement and work out how they can be involved, once they have done this the rest of the team assist if needed.

Individual Creativity

Anthony uses the example of assessment on the Inclusive Arts Course to explain how Epic Arts values individual creativity and does not limit it by setting ridged standards for achievement on the course. Everyone is assessed on their personal development and their ability to achieve; the assessment criteria are flexible.

Time

Anthony sees time as a significant component in inclusive arts practice; time to adapt, develop ideas and communicate. He says that the inclusive arts process may take longer because of this, but in the end everyone can access it and that is the goal.

Community 

Anthony talks about how inclusive arts is a shared experience between a community of artists. The community is joined together and working towards the same goal. Within this community, the focus is not on one person’s agenda or mission, but on a collective mission and shared purpose as a community.

Thank you for taking the time to read this blog, please feel free to add comments or to email me at laura@epicarts.org.uk