An Interview with Epic Encounters Performer, Sokun @ Epic Arts

This week I was able to spend some time with Sokun Bou, a performer with the Epic Encounters team at Epic Arts. It was a fascinating discussion and provided a real insight in to real life experiences in Cambodia for people with disabilities and the passion for change demonstrated by artists at Epic Arts.

'Epic Encounters' is the first and only fully inclusive performance company in South East Asia. The company consists of both disabled and non-disabled performers. Epic Encounters are based at Epic Arts in Cambodia and create dance and theatre based on issues facing Cambodia. They perform and deliver workshops for both community, national and international audiences.

Sokun Bou is a performer with Epic Encounters

Interview with Epic Encounters performer - Sokun @ Epic Arts

Interview Thoughts and Comments

How would you describe inclusive arts?

Sokun: Inclusive Arts means to use the arts to transform and empower people. Art can make everyone equal, we all work towards the same goal and we are on a level together through what we create.

What do you think are the things that you do or think that make successful inclusive arts happen at Epic Arts?

Sokun: Teamwork is very important. I can dance alone, but not for long, it would not be interesting, being with my team and working as a group with them is so important to what I do at Epic Arts, even if that is working on a performance piece, making art or working in the office. We are sure to treat each other equally, no one is too bossy and strong willed, no one is too humble and passive; but we work together as a team with our creativity. 

For me, as a wheelchair user, I never think I cannot do something, I may do it differently from others, but I don't say I cannot. I can develop and adapt, get stronger and more confident and I try to create a way I can move. Even when I cannot do a movement the same way as another person, I can do it my way and we can work together to make this feel the same so that a dance or drama piece can be done in unison if needed. If I dance with someone who does not have a wheelchair, I do not move like them and they do not move like me, but we can find a way to move together.

What do you think other people need to do or think to make successful inclusive arts happen?

Sokun: It is important to communicate in an inclusive way to include people in the way you talk and also the words you use. Inclusive language such as 'move', instead of 'walk' means everyone can respond to the instructions given in their own way. The same is true with the way we communicate with words and sign language, we need to make it so everyone in the room can hear/see and understand through their own languages. What we say and how we say it is something people must think about when doing inclusive arts.

"We are sure to treat each other equally, no one is too bossy and strong willed, no one is too humble and passive, but we work together as a team with our creativity."

I also think it is important for people with disabilities to show what they can do, as many people in Cambodia do not understand that disabled people can do many things and that they can work alongside people without disabilities. We are people together, not people apart. We must act as inclusive people all the time; in our work, in our families and in our communities. I have done this throughout my life as my neighbours see me and know me and are always surprised to see what I can do, I can move around by myself and I can even drive a Moto (Motobike), I have a good job, I am an artist, I am educated and I went to school, I am not very different from my neighbours. 

"If I dance with someone who does not have a wheelchair, I do not move like them and they do not move like me, but we can find a way to move together."

Now I will go to Singapore and the UK and my neighbours cannot believe that a person with a disability can do such good things. They see I am successful in my life, where as before they see me as a child with legs that are small and do not move and no wheelchair. Sometimes it is hard to explain with words what people need to do to be inclusive and to use that inclusive attitude in the arts; but I think it is just a way of acting with others and a way of thinking and doing.

You say people need to work as a team and communicate well. Have you ever seen that happening at Epic Arts or outside of Epic Arts?..... Can you give me an example?

Sokun: When I am working with the students from the Inclusive Arts Course and with the Epic Encounters team we always use the same process to make sure that we can include everyones creative ideas, as each person has something creative in their mind in dance, in drama and in art. We sit together and discuss our thoughts as no one is right or wrong and we want to hear all ideas. We must be kind and respectful in these discussions, waiting for everyone to share their ideas and to give each person some time and some listening from us too.

"We are people together, not people apart. We must act as inclusive people all the time; in our work, in our families and in our communities."

I also think it is important in inclusive arts that the issues we discuss in our performances and in our art are not about being disabled; we are inclusive and our messages must be relevant to all people. Yes, we have people with disabilities on our courses and our performance team, but we have people who  do not have disabilities and they do not want to create work about what is like to be disabled, just like we would not want to make work about what it is like to be non-disabled (most of us can't completely understand that as it has never been that way). We make work about things that matter to many people here in Cambodia because everyone needs to know about things like road safety and staying healthy and looking after women during pregnancy and going to the doctor when they are sick....these are important issues for all people whether they are disabled or non-disabled in Cambodia.

"Yes we have people with disabilities on our courses and our performance team, but we have people who  do not have disabilities and they do not want to create work about what is like to be disabled, just like we would not want to make work about what it is like to be non-disabled (most of us can't completely understand that as it has never been that way)."

When we perform, I want people just to see artists in front of them not give them a label such as 'disabled artist' or 'deaf artist' or 'non-disabled artist'. I want people to see a message, not disability; see arts and creativity, not people with labels such as wheelchair, deaf, blind, non-disabled....just creative individuals... just artists!

What do you think people do or think that can stop successful inclusive arts from happening?

Sokun: I think when people are too selfish and only think about themselves it is very hard to look at other people and see what they might need. If people are selfish they do not want to know about other people and they see themselves and their experiences as the most important thing. 

People must also try to understand that we are not all perfect, we are human and we make mistakes and we all must understand that this happens and not get angry or upset, but share our feelings with each other and accept that we are human and are not trying to be mean to someone or to discriminate, just sometimes we are trying, but we just get it wrong. To be inclusive we must be kind and caring and have understanding and encourage and support other people and not think about just ourselves and our own experiences.

Have you ever experienced being excluded yourself and can you give me an example?

Sokun: I used to find it very hard in my village, as people did not understand me when I was growing up and they did not understand that I have the same rights in my life as them. When I went to school, I did not have a wheelchair and so my mum would carry me on her bicycle so I could go to school. One day a rich man stopped my mum and said, 'Why do you take your boy to school on a bicycle everyday as it is so hard and there is no point as even when he grows up he will not be able to get a job?'. When I heard this I was angry as I thought 'Why can I not get a job, what is wrong with me?'. I decided then that I must try and I must try even harder than everybody else in my school. I was the only person in my school with a disability and people would not help me, so I needed to work much harder just to be as good as them.

"You have to be twice as good as them, to get half of what they have" 

(Elijah Pope speaking to Olivia Pope. Scandal. Season 3. 'Get On The Plane."

When my mum got to school she would help me off the bike and then I would move in my own way to get to school and up the stairs and in to the classroom, no one would carry me, anyway, I wanted to prove I could do it alone. The other children did not understand me and and did not have the knowledge to accept me and they would laugh at me, but eventually they got to see that I was like them and had ideas like them and could be independent. Soon they had knowledge and understanding about me and did not laugh anymore. Now they see me as I have grown up and see what I do and they are amazed by my achievements. But I have had to work harder to do this, work harder than other people to get to school, to learn, to make friends, to succeed, but I am proud of what I can do.

When I finished high school, I applied for many jobs, but when people saw that I have a disability they said I cannot work, even though I can pass the tests and I applied for administration jobs where I would be sitting at a computer all day - I just did not understand why I could not have a job! This happens to most of my friends with disabilities in Cambodia, even now. Eventually I got a job with a Japanese NGO, they saw I was a good worker and they did not think my disability meant that I could not work.

"At Epic Arts we can show other people that we all have the same rights and we all have ideas, we all have many things to add to our communities."

Now I work for Epic Arts and I think Epic can be an example for other organisations and to the government in Cambodia, it can help people understand that people with disabilities can work with non-disabled people in the same way and together on an equal level. At Epic Arts we can show other people that we all have the same rights and we all have ideas, we all have many things to add to our communities such as our families, our village communities, our school communities and the arts communities in Cambodia. I want to shout out to all people in Cambodia 'You and me are the same inside, lets understand and work together!"

What has this told me about the inclusive arts practice at Epic Arts? 

What are the key themes?

 TEAMWORK

Sokun discusses how he needs his team to work well together in order to successfully create work, whether this is through dance, art or even work in the office at Epic. Teamwork is required to be creative within a group!

 LEADERS WITH DISABILITIES

Sokun is a leader on stage, a key member of a performance team and he along with the other team members act as positive role models in Cambodia. They show that people which disabilities can be in a position of leadership whether this is on stage, leading a workshop activity or in other positions.

A 'CAN DO' ATTITUDE 

Sokun talks about not ever saying 'I can't', when he is faced with a challenge, but always finding a way to do it in someway. For him, this attitude has always been a matter of survival in Cambodia.

EQUALITY

Sokun shares his opinion that it is essential to have an understanding of equality in the team and everyone must be clear that there is an expectation to work equally as hard as each other to achieve.

INDIVIDUAL CREATIVITY

Sokun expressed the need to understand that everyone has creative ideas within themselves and these ideas must be valued and allowed to be shared

TIME AND RESPECT

During creative discussions, Sokun tells us that time is needed for each person to share ideas and each idea must be respected, even if it is not used, it is not judged or laughed at.

INCLUSIVE ARTS VS. DISABILITY ARTS

Sokun discussed the themes of the performances he is part of for Epic Encounters. He makes an interesting point that the subject matter needs to be relevant to a mixture of people so the audience can be included. As an inclusive performance company, Epic Encounters create work about issues that are relevant in Cambodian culture and this brings the focus on to the artists and their views on their country, not on themselves as disabled or non-disabled people. 

WE ARE HUMAN

Sokun makes a very important point that while trying to work in an inclusive way in the arts, we must accept that we are humans and we will make mistakes, we may offend someone or say or do something in the wrong way. As long as we try to have an inclusive attitude and accept everyone’s individual creativity we can make mistakes and be understood, as these are not intended to be hurtful. 

CARING

Sokun states that we must have a caring attitude to be inclusive, to care enough to want to adapt and work together and understand each person and their needs.

KNOWLEGDE

Sokun shares his experience at school when the other children laughed at him at first. He thought that it was because they didn’t have enough knowledge and understanding about him and his disability. Once they understood more and got used to Sokun, they did not laugh anymore, they accepted him. 

INCLUSIVE COMMUNICATION

Sokun brings up the subject of inclusive communication in speech within the Inclusive Arts Course and also explains the importance of using inclusive language so that everyone can respond to a task

INCLUSIVE AMBASSADOR

Sokun refers to his home life and his village a number of times. Sokun acts as an inclusive ambassador in his life so that those who live with him can learn and understand. He talks about how we should have an inclusive attitude all the time whether that is at Epic Arts, or outside in our communities.

Thank you for taking the time to read this blog, please feel free to add comments or to email me at laura@epicarts.org.uk